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Pastimes : Don't Ask Rambi -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/16/1998 1:22:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

(I wonder why an intelligent person would stop taking her meds.) Two reasons I know. First - all the meds have annoying/draggy side effects. There's an immediate vitality increment upon discontinuing the meds. Second - if you've been normal on the meds for years, there's a powerful temptation to think you're "cured" and don't need them anymore. After watching four-five bipolars get their noses rubbed in it, my response these days is "Yah. Right." Bipolar illness is remarkable for its insidious nature. Mildly manic people can have a distorted ethical frame and be unaware of it. They tend to shed friends and family like hair in Hiroshima. Re the law and understanding. If she's bipolar, that does not change the poor judgment inherent in her deeds. It does however suggest that the usual reasoning methods don't necessarily apply. I draw two sons from this. 1) She's gonna need extra counseling/ psych help in the slammer. 2) Y'all bipolars out there who are having a normal life while on your meds. Stay the **** on them!

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/16/1998 1:33:00 PM
From: Rick Julian	Respond to of 71178

Penni, The book, "Man's Search for Meaning" by Austrian psychiatrist Victor Frankl details his experiences as a Holocaust survivor. My reading of it provided a seminal moment in the development of my personal philosophy. It profoundly addresses the issue of self responsibility in the face of difficulty (an understatement in Dr. Frankl's case.) I highly recommend it. Rick

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/16/1998 1:47:00 PM
From: jhild	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

Well Penni, I am unsure myself, because I know so little about the boy. I think on the face of it - failed marriage with children and with embarking on a self indulgent affair, to impose this on a thirteen year old, to fulfill her own selfish needs, I agree this is harmful to the well being of a child, and has the potential for real damage to him. But codifying it as criminal behavior, damning it without understanding what their relationship may have been or indeed is, I think is a little reflexive. I am reticent to condemn perceived non-normal behavior. Why must everyone be ground into the same mold. I apply equally this thinking toward homosexuals. Different isn't intrinsically bad. It may well be harmful behavior, in which case I agree there is a real problem, and the child should be protected. But if that child is not a child, if in his mind, experience, deportment, outlook, sensitivity, etc. he has enough maturity, demonstrates enough understanding, then why would anyone deny him adult status in this regard? Age? I personally think that it is very unlikely he can or could be considered mentally an adult. But I am unprepared to say unequivocally that he can not be considered so. I don't have enough information about him. Each person arrives at adulthood via a different path at a different schedule. Some may never reach that goal even in their 70's. But some arrive earlier than others. I know I have met 16 and 17 year olds that have exhibited extraordinary adult qualities, and I have known many 23 year olds that are quite immature. As a society we set an age for qualifying for any number of things, voting, driving, marrying, armed services, etc. But those are arbitrary numbers set through legislative action, which means that they can be the law, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right in all cases. Where I am is only in allowing for the possibility. My belief is that the probability, or likelihood for some semantic purists out there, is that she has selfishly imposed herself onto a developing person, and that she is wrong in doing so. The extent of the criminalizing of this I believe requires more knowledge about the situation than is available to me, anyway.

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/16/1998 1:49:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 71178

Penni, I really don't know very much about Mary Le Tourneau. I saw her ex-husband on a talk show, and he seemed like a very nice and decent person--someone I could be attracted to, as a matter of fact. He reminded me of my husband in a lot of ways, in that he is definitely a hands-on father and talks about his feelings, and seemed very gentle and kind. Her children are just wrecked--they are very young, and were excited that they were going to see their mother very soon, and then of course she was caught with her young boyfriend again. he doesn't really even know to explain it all to them. It seems like their own mother just doesn't even care about them. I do think it extremely common for manic depressives to stop taking their medications. There have been many tragedies as the result of this. I believe that what happens is that once they are effective, you feel NORMAL, and very much want to believe that you are. Certainly, for people who are on probation or parole, perhaps some monitoring system, or having to report someplace like the probation office to take them might be necessary, particularly if you have lapsed once before. I do believe protecting children is a priority. While in one sense I agree with her attorney, when he said that society does not need to be protected from Mary Le Tourneau, certainly the object of her affections did, and was not. I also have to question his parents' actions and their responsibility in the matter, too, though. This is a VERY young child, too young to date or drive, and yet he was out with her very late at night, and it was not an isolated incidence. And his mother has come forward and volunteered to take care of the second baby they will have together. She is already rearing the first one. I do not think Mary belongs in prison, but I do think she should have had extensive inpatient mental health care. And obviously, it is the parents' primary responsibility to protect their own children, as well. One thing I remembered since I wrote yesterday's post is that her father was a noted right-wing California elected official of some kind--I believe he was a Congressman. While the last name Simpson comes to mind, I do not know if this is correct, and do not remember the first name. Harold? Sorry, my brain cell is on overdrive these days! According to the People magazine article he was so conservative that the John Birch Society finally kicked him out. What is significant about this is that he was very moralistic, but was finally revealed to have a long-term girlfriend hidden while he was married to Mary's mother, and that marriage was not a happy one. When this was revealed in the press he was a ruined man. He was also an authoritarian father--a harsh disciplinarian. So she grew up in a very cold and loveless household, with a lot of hypocrisy in the mix. That cannot have been good for her development. The whole thing does raise an interesting question, however. She says this child is the love of her life--their souls belong together. She realized this when he was in the second grade, but of course did not pursue him then. Is this the way life really is, or are there a whole bunch of people with whom we could be happy? And if you realize that you have found the love of your life, how long do you wait until that person grows up? Obviously, he is sexually mature. I am not saying this is all right by any means--my underlying philosophy is that children need to be protected. However, I do think she is being villified beyond the circumstances of her crime. She hurt a whole lot of people, including her children, and I think that is horrible. But women do things at least this hurtful all the time, and do not end up behind bars. She is mentally ill, and in my opinion needs treatment. She is not a violent person. And people like Jerry Seinfeld, who started a relationship with a sixteen-year-old girl when he was in his early forties, are somehow treated much more charitably. I wonder if any of this is harder on her because she is a woman, and usually we see the sexual predator as a man, instead? History is full of relationships between men and very young girls young enough to be their daughters. I hope I didn't just stir up a hornets' nest! I just thing the whole thing is extremely complicated.

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/16/1998 7:16:00 PM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

Penni, I couldn't agree more, one thing I don't quite get though is, who gains by her being locked up for 7 years? She lost her job, spent 6 months in prison. That should be enough. We have murderers who serve far less time. Not to mention people like OJ. Michael

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/19/1998 2:58:00 PM
From: Janice Shell	Respond to of 71178

No, I wasn't aware of her being a manic-depressive. (I wonder why an intelligent person would stop taking her meds.) My understanding is that this is a big problem with manic depressives. They feel okay, think they're fine, and, though they probably don't admit it to themselves, miss the rush of the mania. Sometimes they're also encouraged to quit the meds by people who never knew 'em when they were nuts. I have a friend whose sister is manic depressive. She's fairly normal when she's on drugs, absolutely whacko when she isn't. Runs around making death threats to strangers, taht sort of thing. She's been arrested several times, and hospitalized dozens. She's also had a number of boyfriends who, not knowing what was in store, suggested she stop taking all that dangerous poison. She'd be okay for a week or so, till the cumulative effect wore off, and then WATCH OUT. Needless to say, the boyfriends fled in horror. She married a couple of years ago, don't know what's happened since.

To: Rambi who wrote (9860)	4/19/1998 3:02:00 PM
From: Janice Shell	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

It was a wrong and terrible thing to do. Her getting pregnant certainly complicated things. I'm not so sure that introducing a 14-year-old to the joys of sex is such an awful thing. I did tell you, I think, about my college friend Lucinda, who hung out around the local high school in the hope of picking up virgins. They adored her and I'm sure she taught them well. And, when they fleetingly think of here today, it's probably with gratitude.