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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (20603)	4/17/1998 11:25:00 AM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Penni, you really shouldn't put ideas into Del's head about running away with me!! I do believe it has crossed his mind many times before, and the vision of me dancing in the moonlight and hugging trees might just get his heart beating pretty fast or something! I must have really misunderstood this paragraph in your post: <However I think your post is an example of what I meant by "paean of praise to paganism". I was using the least pejorative definition of Paganism-- as the absence of religion. You are most certainly a pagan by that definition and you have written as if that were an excellent way to be (which it may be-I certainly didn't argue with you---you don't have to defend that!) Neither of your definitions -"worship of nature" nor "satanism"- is mentioned in the definition in my AHD. But just as paganism can turn into satanism, Christianity can turn into bigotry. MAN JUST DOES THIS CRAP.> While I agree with your conclusion in the last sentence, using phrases like "the least pejorative definition of paganism", and "neither of your definitions-'worship of nature' or 'satanism'" led me to believe that you did not understand what paganism really is, but had instead somehow absorbed the negative bias that this society throws up around it. Obviously, from the structure of your sentence I thought you were associating satanism with paganism. Del is right when he talks about the prejudice against atheists in this society, as is evidenced by the George Bush quote. How many decades will it be before an atheist is president? A long, long, time I bet, because most of America is Christian and there is a really deep distrust there. Even though it is not true, most people assume that people in America who are not religious are not as moral or ethical as Christians. Hitler's Catholicism is a little trickier, in my opinion. While he was a very evil man, there was indeed centuries of prejudice against the Jews in Europe because of negative writings about them in the New Testament, and he would have absorbed that in his religious studies as a child. He used those feelings to full advantage. That is why the Pope just apologized. My mission in writing about this stuff is not really to cause further polarization, although it may seem that way. It is to point out that everyone should really own their own belief systems, and understand them, and not automatically assume that people hiding behind the cloak of religion are harmless, or even good. I know that you already feel that way. Could we talk about something else now? Would you like to share your chocolate cherry cake trick with us? That is one of my most favorite flavor combinations in the world.

To: Rambi who wrote (20603)	4/18/1998 1:57:00 AM
From: Krowbar	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Hi miss penni, The problem seems to be that whenever we challenge an idea such as Jeff Jacoby blaming Naziism on the lack of religion by pointing out things like Hitler's admiration of Luther's hatred of the Jews, we are viewed as being extreme. I see 2 choices here. Respond with historically verified facts, or shut up and take it. I am no longer willing to sit back quietly and listen to disinformation about Atheists. If that is viewed by some as extreme, so be it. I will continue to do so. I also want to say that for the most part you are very fair about everybody's views. I am mostly referring to the reaction by a lot of people by my posts about Hitler, and Christine's about the torture of women, etc. What do you mean by this? . << If you and Del run off together, deserting your families, abdicating your responsibilities, would it be accurate for me to say "Well of course, what do you expect? She dances in the moonlight and hugs trees! And he once went to a cocktail party at Madelyn O"Hare's house. THey did this bad thing because they're atheists." Of course not--we do these things because of weaknesses in our own natures. >> Are you saying that going to Madelyn's house was a weakness on my part, or that dancing in the moonlight and hugging trees is a weakness on Christine's part? I think that I have run off with Christine in my dreams. We spent our honeymoon standing on the corner asking people if they were Christians, and scolding them if they were. Del