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To: Ramsey Su who wrote (9988)	4/20/1998 12:06:00 PM
From: DaveMG	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 152472

Ahhhh.Isn't it great that this isn't one of those boring "she's goin up, she's goin down" threads. Dave

To: Ramsey Su who wrote (9988)	4/20/1998 6:02:00 PM
From: dougjn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 152472

<<Mexico will not trade with the US until the borders are opened and Mexican "immigrants" are not dying in the backhills in San Diego, Argentina will not trade with the UK until the word Falkland disappears from the world map.....>> Sorry Ramsey, not everyone's national peeves have the same moral stature. By any reasonable measure. You've got a good point re: Japan in WWII. Not the worst behavior by the standards of war in world history, but something to be ashamed of in many respects. Mexico re: our immigration policies, and their enforcement (or lack thereof)???? Give us a hugh break. We have some of the most generous immigration policies in the world, with some of the least attention to issues of national benefit from the immigration in question. (Yes there IS Canada.) I mean most of our legal immigration is bringing in the dependants of those already here, many of whom got here illegally and then were pardoned in one wave or another of that process. Then the parents are generally placed on SSI disability after a short period, despite written promises to the contrary for five years. And our enforcement is laughable. It's really that in many quarters there is real definace for any immigration policy and hense effective enforcement is vigorously lobbied against. (e.g. proof of identity prior to employment.) Don't get me wrong. I'm in favor of a good measure of immigration. Do feel we should enforce our laws, however. And do feel we should pay a bit more attention to immigration which is helpful to the country. I.e., more educated or skilled immigration. With perhaps some limited requirements for anyone, such as native language literacy. (Maybe excepting aged parents who really will be supported by their legal children, rather than a SSI system they made no contributions to.) We are no longer a vast empty continent stretched for unskilled labor. Things change. Argentina pissed about the Fauklands? Why, do you just assume the British are always wrong? There are virtually no people of Argentine descent, and no native peoples whatsoever on the Faulkands. And never were. What, because it is closer to Argentina, never mind still over a hundred miles off, and never mind history, it should go to them? Despite overwhelming popular Fauklands votes to the contrary? What pray tell are you talking about? The Argentines were WHOLLY wrong on that one period. Doug

To: Ramsey Su who wrote (9988)	4/20/1998 8:19:00 PM
From: Joe NYC	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 152472

Ramsey way OT The major point of interest here is the separation of trade issues vs political issues. I think it is a responsibility of countries, where citizens enjoy their freedom, to bring up the subject in any contact with countries who deny their citizens these freedoms. Piracy, open markets, trade restrictions are all legitimate trade issues. Telling a trading partner how to run their country is not. So if your neighbor is beating his wife, do you just turn around? Will you invite him to your next BBQ at your house? China and Korea will not trade with Japan until they acknowledge the facts of WWII You are a little obsessed by this WWII stuff. The war was started by unelected emperor. Today's government of Japan was elected by people who were not even alive in '30s and '40s. Would you like the present Japanese prime minister to start touring the globe and apologize to everyone? Like Bill Clinton has been doing recently? Besides, the liberators are not always a that much better than the conquerers. I would have to hesitate if you gave me a choice between being conquered by your typical conquering army, and being liberated by Stalin or Mao. Mexico will not trade with the US until the borders are opened and Mexican "immigrants" are not dying in the backhills in San Diego, Argentina will not trade with the UK until the word Falkland disappears from the world map... I am not sure what you mean. In fact, you have less excuse for your superficial understanding of the issues... Finally, Jozef, I was not previously aware of your level of understanding on these issues, your post just told me.... Ok, would you mind enlightening me? What is it that I am missing? I think that you are the one who is confusing economics and politics. Deng and the new guy Zho Rongji may be liberalizing China's economy, and are responsible partly responsible for tremendous growth. But Germany and Italy didn't do that badly under Hitler and Musolini. I don't see any indication that the present leadership has expansion of personal freedoms, ending censorship, ending of rule by coercion and fear, submitting themselves to a free elections on their agenda. According to Freedom House, China is in the dead last place (sharing this place with likes of Cuba, Iraq, North Korea, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, etc.) I don't feel any hesitation to call the totalitarian rulers of these countries goons. And I have no hesitation of calling the present leader of Slovakia a goon, even though the Freedom House is a little more generous with Slovakia. freedomhouse.org Joe