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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (26944)12/13/1998 11:08:00 AM
From: epicure  Respond to of 108807
 
LOL- I am not hostile I am amused. I reject Jesus because the Christian religion and all other beliefs are irrational. Same reason I am not an atheist. Actually atheism seems even sillier than Christianity, although logically the atheists have the stronger position (one has the burden of proof when asserting the positive) still the atheist gets nothing in return for his belief. At least Christians have some hope of a payoff in the eternal salvation department, but what does the poor atheist get if he/she is right?

Christianity in many forms, not just the Catholic religion, has led to organized social murder and brutality. It is the nature of religions to be "exclusive" and exclusivity breeds discrimination, discrimination breeds hatred. This is impossible to deny when looking at the history of ALL organized Christian religions (and other religions too, although not all religions are as aggressive about colonizing as the Christians).

Christianity has changed a great deal over the centuries. If it is so absolutely true how can it be mutable? After all it was heresy to say the earth revolved around the sun at one time. Once you suspend your rational thought, and give the power of your reason over to an organization, you lay the seeds for mass action- and the mass actions of the church have almost always been inimical to free thought, and to the lives of persons whose beliefs were in conflict with the church. That is just history. You can argue with it if you want. You can even choose not to believe it- if you can believe in god then you are clearly a credulous individual and can believe in anything.

I grant you that Religion may serve a need for the week minded who cannot find a moral center without someone else laying down the law. A rational person can find a way to be moral and good without such props. I grant you that some people are so afraid of death they need religion to face the possible end of their existence. But that does not necessarily make religion a good thing. In my opinion one comes out a much better person after contemplating the possibility that death brings a complete end to one's existence. Nothing makes life more precious than the knowledge that it is finite. No wonder there are fewer atheists in prison- they don't want to waste any of their FINITE lifespan in jail.

I do not see how you could say my response was hostile. It was condescending and disrespectful- because I have no respect for people who suspend their rational thought. But hostility implies hatred and enmity- I'll leave those emotions to Christians who have shown themselves so capable of exercising them.



To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (26944)12/13/1998 11:34:00 AM
From: Rambi  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 108807
 
Dear Bob and Del,
I'm supposed to be doing my Christmas cards, but this is on my mind so-
Bob,The Good News is God is alive and well at our high school.
Del, the Bad News is God is alive and well at our high school.
The No News is that penni remains as confused as ever about the whole issue, although she has arrived at her own conclusions for this week, helped by her children, who seem to have a healthier and more rational acceptance of others than do a lot of adults.

The week has been filled with school activities. On Thursday we attended the Christmas Choir concert (CW is in the choir), a wonderful musical experience. The program ranged from light secular to the truly religious, concluding with Handel's Halleluia Chorus.
As a professional musician, I am absolutely comfortable with religious music and have stated so before. I don't believe that the greatest Western music ever written should be excluded from the academic. There was my little atheist up there singing about the Star of Bethlehem and the Baby in the Manger and praising God with King of Kings, Lord of Lords. Afterwards I said to him, "How did you feel about that?" He looked at me funny and said, "Mom, we sang about Santa Claus too and I don't believe in him. But wasn't that GREAT when the tenors went for the high A? ANd didn't you love the Rutter piece?"
For CW it was about music, not about being forced to sing about God. Now we have argued before that Christmas evolved from pagan holidays, which to me is irrelevant, but let's face facts, because in Western culture today, it is primarily about the birth of Christ. And the greatest music in our culture has sprung from that inspiration. The Western musical ear is developed to appreciate the tonal qualities of this music. Sure, exposure to Muslim chants is fine for education purposes, but we HEAR and experience and enjoy best that which is familiar to us and the best of that, at this time of year, is religiously inspired. You don't have to accept Christ to appreciate the compositional brilliance.
Anyway, my position on religious music being appropriate to the academic setting remains unchanged. Ammo, by the way, is celebrating Saturnalia in Latin and having a great time. Would this bother you, Bob?
Then yesterday we had the state football semi-finals. We lost but it was an incredible game--31-28. At the end of the game, the band played the school song and the players all stood at attention, holding hands. Then they all took off their helmets and knelt down in a group on one knee. They do this apparently after every game. The quarterback, a strong Christian, leads them in prayer. As moving as it was to WATCH this group of tired, banged up and disappointed kids join together like that, I was very uncomfortable. What if my son were on that team? What if he didn't WANT to pray? Sure, he doesn't have to---but even the action of kneeling and bowing your head is a coercion of sorts. Should this be happening? The motivation is commendable--it accepts the loss, it gives perspective to the game in the great scheme of things, I assume they thank God for letting them play hard, or whatever, but shouldn't all that be done by the Coach and the Captains without the religious context? This to me is a much clearer case of religion being imposed wrongly on others. Unlike the issue of religion in music, God is not an integral part of the football game; this was not associated with the game at all; it was public and it was flagrant and it was post facto. I thought it the opposite of what God intended anyway---it smacks of smugness and arrogance. Let those who choose to pray do so in a corner of the locker room later, quietly and privately.

So there you have it-- I believe what I saw this week was the good and the bad. I am torn, because religion in SOME WAYS is a grand tool for teaching values, but it's not the only tool; these values can be taught in other ways. Being a Christian is not the only way to be moral and I don't understand the Christian refusal to accept this simple fact. When Bob offered the alternative of being a Christian or getting pregnant and taking drugs, he indicated his true feelings about my being able to raise responsible, ethical children as a non-believer, despite his assurances in a prior post that he did not mean to insult me. If eternal life hinges on accepting Christ, then let that be a private, individual decision; don't condemn me as an ethical, thoughtful, caring person because I am not a reborn Christian. God will take care of that at the right time without your assistance. You and Emile seem rather to be on a personal vendetta and crusade than a loving mission and this my children can do without--make your beliefs appealing with actions and love, not with defensive words and attacks on other beliefs.



To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (26944)12/13/1998 11:34:00 PM
From: nihil  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 108807
 
RE: was Jesus armed?

Clearly Peter tried to convert Malchus into an earless one, according to John. Jesus disapproved. But why did he say that would return with a sword instead of peace (Mt 10:34), even though he claimed that everyone who took the sword would perish by the sword (including, I presume, himself). You, who believe everything in the Bible must understand these things. Please explicate. I am genuinely curious. I am also curious if you wish Ezekiel 23 to be read to or by children.