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To: one_less who wrote (26646)	1/8/1999 11:25:00 AM
From: Johannes Pilch	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 67261

Brees. I really hate to see you wasting your wisdom on a rock. This thing to which you speak has the intellect of a piece of granite.

To: one_less who wrote (26646)	1/8/1999 11:36:00 AM
From: DMaA	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 67261

. What do you hate about the the first religion to proclaim equality for women and defined womens rights over 14,000 years ago. Could you explain this please?

To: one_less who wrote (26646)	1/8/1999 12:10:00 PM
From: miraje	Respond to of 67261

I am always reminded of the Phrase in Arlo Guthrey's song, "what if they gave a war and no body came." You are obviously armed and seeing armed opponenents (real or otherwise) everywhere you turn. It's rather sad when someones life experience has lead them to view human relationships primarily in terms of predators and prey.

To: one_less who wrote (26646)	1/8/1999 5:12:00 PM
From: lorrie coey	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 67261

From: +brees <<I'm clear that you think I'm a bigot...now what's your definition of a "sexist"?>>You. Admittedly...see how we reflect each other's opinion of each other?If somebody took the references and attacks you make regarding sterio types of male and male perspectives and substituted sterio-typical female or feminist rhetoric, we would both be thinking of them as sexist. I suspect you've had some pretty major battles with such folks. Unfortunately the fuel that keeps the flame going for bigots and sexists is other bigots and sexists. Yea, this thread illustrates this... I am always reminded of the Phrase in Arlo Guthrey's song, "what if they gave a war and no body came." You are obviously armed and seeing armed opponenents (real or otherwise) everywhere you turn. Only potentially... <<I will be happy to point out what I believe to be your prejudice...and it's foundation is anchored in your islamic religion.>> We have never discussed my perspective as anchored in my Islamic religion and as I said previously your presumptions are off color and off target. To insist someone's perspective matches reports on terrorist dictators you've seen on tv or biased reporting in a feminist magazine while they tell you that's not who they are, decries bigotry. I thought the reason we were having this exchange was to gain a more realistic perspective...and I don't read pheminist magazines! Islam is made up of 1 billion living people on all continents, of all races, nationalities, and politics, including feminism. Within that population we have the typical range of personalities from psychotic to saintly. <<my knowledge is limited to my inter-personal life experiences, as well as casual observation of what I consider to be "islamic/arabic culture/religion".>> Thus, your sweeping generalizations. Thus, I was looking to you for new information...I stated my limitation. So far, I'm only having my pre-judgements confirmed. Arabs make up only 7% of the Islamic peoples of the world. I am not Arab but know many of them and not one of the ones I've met personally matches your steriotypical slams....in your opinion...mine could differ. <<I will be happy to point out what I believe to be your prejudice...and it's foundation is anchored in your islamic religion.>> What you believe about my prejudice is based soley on your knowledge that I am a professed Muslim. Your beliefs are apparent and catagorically wrong. My Islamic Religion? Again I suspect your beliefs are based on the geo-political reports from the media which represents the action news on the small hand full of the 1billion who are psychotic terrorists. Jihad is fundamental to the creed. Have you studied the foundations of the religion in which you formed your beliefs? I'm not "religious". Have you researched the foundations of my religion from its source or only from biased bashing literature? I thought you would share some high points. If you have, what do you hate about the most merciful, compationate God. This God is not considered in human likeness at all, by the way, let alone male. What do you hate about the the first religion to proclaim equality for women and defined womens rights over 14,000 years ago. What do you hate about the religion that prescribes and makes it possible for women to be the center and dominating decision maker of its culture. That's not what my eyes have witnessed in actuality... What do you hate about the religion that considers women, not men, to be responsible for their sexuality and who has rights over it. I consider it criminal to simultaneously endorse, encourage and excuse male reproductive irresponsibility...it's unexcusable. What do you hate about a religion where men must check with their wives to get approval for decisions within the home.Oh brees, that's just funny...do ya think the Women inIraq could ask the boys to please stop playing with fire??!! LOL! They mind real good! When was the last time you saw an Islamic woman's sexuality exploited to sell chewing gum and tooth paste?The black veils wouldn't go over well with my demographic! When was the last time you heard of sexual harrassment of an Islamic women at work, or on the street? Exactly...an islamic woman knows her place. Women in Islam have rights and responsibilities and are, based on the religion (cultures vary), entirely equal to men.That's not true. Are there violations, do people get oppressed? This would not be The World if they didn't.We create our own "alleged worlds",and mine has been clearly described. However, how many shelters are their in your community? Are the majority of inhabitants Islamic women and children? Nope.I wonder why... How about oversees? Not much need for shelters there either. There is no shelter for Women or children in the "3rd world". I would suggest that before you so enthusiastically judge culture on the other side of the planet of which you have no first hand experience, you check out your own back yard. Time for some springcleaning, I'd say. That's why I'm here! <<I think you are in denial about some aspects of what you "believe".>> Naming my religion does not constitute a discussion on what I believe, since the attributes you give Islam are not shared by me or other insiders. Pick a doctrine, a scripture, an article of faith. If it is valid and you have a problem with it, I would definitely defend it with my last breath and if I can't I will happily denounce the whole of the Islamic religion. I'll check it out. You should not feel that you must denounce an entire idea simply because it's artisticlly flawed...acceptance is humility Keep in mind, however, that although culture may in part be a product of religion it is not the religion. We wouldn't say Jeffrey Dommer represents Christianity even though he is a product of Western culture. I expect the same consideration for Islam. To some extent, Dahmler does represent both of those...how could he not? <<that is my perception of you...and yes, that's based on your islamic association.>> As I pointed out previously you've missed the target with your perception. My association is with the Quran, not geo-politics. Check out the Quran from your local library if you're serious.And I don't know why you refuse to see your connection to those who would use your precious, sacred teaching to destroy individuals...