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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (29963)	2/4/1999 7:28:00 AM
From: Father Terrence	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Christine: You can justify a system where innocent American citizens are having their greatest right ripped away from them by the State? FT

To: Grainne who wrote (29963)	2/4/1999 12:15:00 PM
From: E	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

<<So looking at from the point of view of preserving the healthier portion of the population, and protecting that population from predators, an argument can be made that the death penalty is good for the species as a whole.>> Christine, there is no evidence that the death penalty acts to deter predators. There is evidence that more cops on the street do. If you choose to put your resources into expensive capital cases instead of into deterring crime in ways that do work, face that it is symbolic, and not to protect the population from predators. And, as I pointed out, only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny percentage of individuals who kill are charged under death penalty statutes. How can killing only that tiny group, selected effectually by race, race of victim, poverty, and sex, be 'good for the species as a whole'? If one wants to kill people, one must say, "I don't care about fairness or deterrence, I don't care how they're selected, I want somebody to die, symbolically and because it makes me feel better." That is a position I can comprehend, because it is honest in its disregarding of morality and the evidence, and is identifiably human. << I don't think it would ever be a perfect system, but I agree that poor minority defendants should have the same level of quality legal representation if we are to continue to have the death penalty here.>> That won't happen. And I think the implication is that you believe as I do that we ought to join all the other western democracies and abolish the death penalty. Our lovely company in the international community is countries like Iran and Iraq and China. <<I think it would be interesting, though, to try to evaluate whether more innocent people have been put to death through wrongful justice than have been protected by repeat offenders who killed and somehow eventually got out of prison, when the death penalty wasn't enforced. >> Again, "when the death penalty wasn't enforced" implies that that is the exception. Very few killers are put to death. Very few. Very very few. And the few who are chosen, are the male, uneducated, minority, impoverished defendants whose victim was white. <<I think it is normal and natural that a population would want to cull its members who prey on others.>> Pro death penalty state legislators in NY historically opposed legislation to create a "death without possibility of parole" option. That eliminates from the equation your "who eventually got out of prison" category. But politicians love the death penalty. Just love it! So much easier a way to get votes than by discussing your record of accomplishment or laying out a constructive program. It's like falling off a log to play to emotions instead of thought. And the people just eat it up. I am not going to post on this subject again. It is my experience that discussion of it is futile. Either something inside oneself says it is wrong of the state to kill, particularly by lottery, or it says nothing matters but that we kill some people, however they are chosen and whatever the cost. As my friend said, "It's not about them; it's about us."

To: Grainne who wrote (29963)	2/4/1999 6:08:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

Christine, There have been a lot of cases where people have gotten out of prison only to kill again. I don't see why a convicted murderer would ever be let out of prison, ever. If their are murderers on death row, why are other murderers getting out on parole. That makes no sense. Because justice is imperfect I would be for a system where murderers get life without parole, that's it. They never get out. Why should they? If you kill, you die in prison, period. I am concerned though at the way the states and federal government are going to more and more severe treatment of prisoners. New jails are being built where the prisoner is in the cell 23.5 hours a day forever, with no relief. They get no social interaction, exercise or human contact of any kind. I think that is too severe. The prison system is a mess anyhow. I wouldn't know where to start to reform it. And now they want to privatize it so that the people who run it have a profit incentive. I have a bad feeling about that. Bob