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Politics : To be a Liberal,you have to believe that..... -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: DJB who wrote (1652)	9/10/1999 3:16:00 PM
From: Null Dog Ago	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 6418

Not to nitpick but isn't it redundant to use "hate" to describe criminal activity? (I think someone else said this before me, sorry if I'm stealing your line.) Aren't all crimes bad, whether they're motivated by hate or not? Does it make that big a difference if someone kills you for your wallet versus someone killing you because you are Jewish, gay, or whatever?

To: DJB who wrote (1652)	9/10/1999 4:07:00 PM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 6418

Dennis, res- I find it interesting that you equate hate crimes to beating up gays. Hate crimes as defined by the law in Chicago are crimes against people because of their religion, race and sexual orientation. I know I wrote this in a previous post but you seem to have forgotten it. So what do you figure Dennis, a bunch of homosexuals are being arrested for "hate crimes" against heterosexuals? You also seem to think that hate crimes are only done by kids in the local school yard or neighborhood. Hate crimes are usually done in the neighborhood of the victim. Do your kids go to schools with a diverse student body? I'm not sure what your assumption regarding my beliefs are based on. But my children go to a local school less than a mile away. And it's a very diverse population. Of course, I live in the Northwest so we don't define and categorize people based on race the way some areas of the country do. My children go to school with other American children. Boys and girls. What their race is or sexual orientation holds no real meaning to me. Why do you look on people as belonging to certain sub-groups of society? Why not move toward a society in which race and sexual orientation is irrelevant? After all, what is race anyway? Do you really think you can look at an American citizen and determine their race or sexual orientation? Their race is American, nothing more, nothing less. I can't prove it but I think more hate crimes are done by adults against adults. How many fat adults have been beaten up since they became adults? How many fat people have been killed because they are fat? Hate crimes are not a school yard problem. Well, here is the problem isn't it? You don't know. But you are willing to create laws which divide our society. Why? Why not simply punish the behavior, without regard to these other issues? Substitute the word "adults" for kids and see if you get the same conclusion. Also substitute "blacks, gays and religious affiliation (jews for example)" for "gays". If you really want to look at people as belonging to sub-groups. my assumption regarding adults would be that more white heterosexual people are victims of violent crimes, and that more blacks victimize other blacks than whites victimize blacks. Further, homosexuals and religious affiliation are statistically an extremely small minority of violent victims. Crime in general is on the decrease but hate crimes are on the rise. Based on what metrics? There is an old saying...Figures don't lye but liars figure. This part of your post puzzles me. You went from having hate crime legislation to teaching values in the schools? Are you talking about sex education and learning tolerance as we discussed before? Seems like two different issues to me. It's only confusing if you look at the issue in a linear fashion. Systemically they are related. I fear the violence done toward gays, so I must create lessons and books to teach acceptance and tolerance toward homosexuals. Further, we need new laws categorizing violent acts toward gays. Let's call them hate crimes. I do this, because I don't trust you to raise your kids the way I feel they should be raised. So I must ask the question why do you care if there is hate crime legislation at all? Your kids are not going to be criminals because of their upbringing. They may be a victim of hate crimes because of race but that is not likely. So why are you so dead against hate crime legislation? I believe I have answered this on numerous occasions. Hate crimes divide our society into sub-groups where we deal with the motivations of crime instead of the behavior. I care more about uniting America, where we don't look at people as belonging to this group or that group. Additionally, It doesn't pass the logic test. I'm against a lot of laws which don't pass the logic test. Can you answer me this question. Why do you feel that current laws regarding violent acts committed against other people are insufficient? Erase Hate, I agree. Michael

To: DJB who wrote (1652)	9/10/1999 4:45:00 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 6418

Dennis, I made a first stab at finding a legit study, but I could only find a citation at an anti- homosexual web site, with inadequate citation. I will post it, because it the sort of thing that I have read in more neutral forums, but I am not posting it to prove anything, since it is not a solid enough source..... Studies show that homosexuals are far from being persecuted. (The Arkansas Citizen, Aug. 1990, p. 1) Homosexuals have an average annual household income of $55,430 as compared to $32,144 for the general population and $12,166 for disadvantaged African-American households. Homosexuals are three times more likely to be college graduates as average Americans (60% vs. 18%). Homosexuals are three times more likely to hold professional or managerial jobs as other Americans (49% vs. 16%). Almost two-thirds of homosexuals (65.8%) are overseas travelers; that is four times the average for other Americans (14%)!