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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 4:22:14 AM
From: ig  Respond to of 281500
 
Brilliant!

"The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, à la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too."

"The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because
they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No [...]"

ig



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 5:50:21 AM
From: SirRealist  Respond to of 281500
 
Friedman's essay is, I believe, exactly on the money; it is one of his best. I can't say that objectively though. I like it because it mirrors what I've been thinking, and articulates what I could not say nearly as well.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 11:11:36 AM
From: JohnM  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Suicidal Lies
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


Nadine, this Friedman column is quite good. I find his stuff very uneven, obviously for reasons dissimilar to yours, but this one gets me thinking. I've got to factor this element into my thinking now.

Thanks for posting it.

John



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 11:23:53 AM
From: slacker711  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers — strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis — to achieve their political aims. And it is working.

Great column...

This is what makes the situation impossible. Personally, I would probably advocate Israel unilaterally moving out of the settlements. However, this is nearly impossible to do in the current situation....or any other similair action which looks like appeasement. The world cant afford to allow a strategy based on suicide bombing to become successful.

Ugh....what a depressing day. Concentrating on the market going down tomorrow is going to be a welcome relief....

Slacker



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 11:34:48 AM
From: Hawkmoon  Respond to of 281500
 
Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.

Good 'ol Tom Friedman.. Hitting it square on the mark once again.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 11:55:06 AM
From: paul_philp  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
Excellent column from Thomas Friedman.

I wonder if the American response to these suicide bombers will be tempered by a fear of importing them?

I would add another idea, stolen from Friedam. Israel and America must get committed to developing the Palestinian economy. Palestine will not calm down until a middle class emerges that doesn't want to give up their lattes, Internet and SUV. I think this is what will save Ireland. The youth in Ireland are beginning to ignore the 'old ideas' for thier jobs at Intel.

Paul



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 1:51:46 PM
From: John Carragher  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
I got a problem putting in American Troops...Friedman had suggested putting our troops in there a few weeks ago.. I believe they will just be targets. No one wants to see our sons and daughters coming home in body bags.

Perhaps we need for Israelis to carry out their plan.. go in and take out the fractions calling for these suicides. Then perhaps someone will start to negotiate in good faith. The other arab nations need to stand up and support peace. Perhaps they should put some of their armies in to draw a line between the two.

If the Palestinians have been learning in their schools to eliminate Israel then maybe it will take fellow arabs to educate them otherwise.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 6:09:25 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
I found this comment via a link on instapundit.com. I don't know this author, but I thought his comments on Friedman's column were good:

A domino has fallen! After weeks of promoting the transparently phony Saudi "peace plan" and thus encouraging the notion that the Palestinian Authority and its allies have reasonable goals that can be accommodated through diplomacy, Tom Friedman of The New York Times has waked up and smelled the cordite ("Suicidal Lies"):

The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, à la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.

The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.

Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.


Like a good Timesman, Mr. Friedman goes on to urge that, once "the whole world sees" the suicide strategy's defeat, we should hide that fact from the Palestinians themselves by offering them the same terms that Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak put forward two years ago - an excellent way to ensure that no would-be terrorist anywhere learns the lesson. But we can argue later about what terms to impose in the wake of victory. We need to catch our victory first.

After the rapid campaign in Afghanistan, the Bush Administration has not been rushing into the next phase of the War on Terrorism. As I have noted previously (3/15/02), our armed forces, still weakened by Clinton era neglect, need time to recuperate and to prepare for what will surely be a more strenuous series of battles in Iraq. Unhappily, the enemy is not cooperating with our rhythms but instead wants to impose its own on the conflict. The escalation of Palestinian attacks on Israel is best understood as an attempt to derail U.S. action against Saddam Hussein, action that would, Arab leaders fear (probably, alas, too paranoically), be followed by a general American cleansing of regimes that have been helpful to terrorists, i. e., just about every existing Arab government.

It now looks like President Bush (probably overruling most of his advisors - another sign of how fortunate we are to have this "simplistic", "inexperienced" commander-in-chief) has decided to let Israel do whatever it finds needful for its own security, dissolving the Palestinian Authority de facto and rounding up its leaders.

The outcome of the war may well depend on what happens during the next few weeks. The immediate Islamofascist reaction - particularly after Yasser Arafat dies, is arrested or escapes into exile (to take the possibilities in diminishing order of probability) - will almost certainly be threats to expand the suicide bombing campaign beyond Israel. The chief of Fatah's Lebanese branch has already warned of suicide attacks in America.

Bombings are certainly possible - likely, I suppose - in the United States, but the potential for mass terrorism here seems pretty low. Rank-and-file Moslems in this country have displayed virtually no sympathy for Wahhabi fanaticism, despite the impression given by organizations that purport to speak in their name, and the pool of young men willing to commit suicide for Allah is minuscule. The real danger lies in Europe, where Arab Moslem minorities are large, unassimilated and violent, quite fearsome enough to intimidate spineless social-democratic politicians. It may take no more than explosions in a few hypermarkets to throw the European Union into a panic of appeasement and anti-Americanism.

Perhaps the time has come, as our allies grow irresolute, for the United States to treat this war as a real war, not as an unwelcome diversion from consumerism, and to go onto a war footing commensurate with the size and scope of the conflict. That means worrying about balanced budgets some other year and dealing with unemployment by conscripting the young men required to bring the military establishment back to at least its Gulf War level. It also means, since this is the first war in which we have faced a significant threat of partisan warfare at home, allowing Americans to arm themselves in their own defense. A nationwide concealed-carry law would impinge on states' rights but is well within Congress' militia powers.

War is very unpleasant. It restricts individual freedom, expands the powers of government, interferes with the legitimate pleasures of life and, of course, results in destruction and death. We don't have much choice, however, about whether to fight this war, only about whether we will fight seriously and win or dawdle about and either win at much higher eventual cost or - the worst option of all - lose and see the world take the first steps into an Islamofascist Millennium.
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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (22767)3/31/2002 9:14:37 PM
From: Brumar89  Respond to of 281500
 
Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers —

A good article. Though the Palestinians aren't the only movement (or the first) to use suicide bombers. The 9/11 attacks on the US were suicide bombings, using fully fueled hijacked planes as bombs. The USS Cole bombing was a suicide bombing. Ditto, I think the East African embassy bombings were suicide bombings. Lastly, I believe the 1980's bombing of the US Marine barracks in Lebanon was a suicide bombing.