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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110763)	8/9/2003 6:49:22 PM
From: Ish	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<<The Jews merely wanted to carve out a small homeland so they had a place to go when persecuted in Europe and elsewhere.. >> Call me a Zionist and I'll gladly accept. I'm a German Lutheran but I'm all for those people. I'm glad they have a homeland that goes back to the Old Testament plus they are under the aegis of the US. Not like they can't do it on their own as small as they are. A jewel in the sand.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110763)	8/9/2003 6:59:11 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The pan-arabists and the zionists have this in common - they both apply their concepts on arab lands ..... and as luck would have it, in many cases the same lands If the buddhists were to claim the coast of Niedersachsen, and roll in with tanks and machine-guns to set up a state centred on their religion, for their exclusive benefit, how would the germans and danes and dutch react, not with copious hospitality one suspects eh ..... would it matter much if say the chinese had been persecuting the buddhists, probably not to the dispossessed

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110763)	8/9/2003 10:16:39 PM
From: Jacob Snyder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Pan-Arabism, Zionism, and Imperialism: The Pan-Arabists seek to unite all the lands that have a majority Arab population, into one unit. They recognize that, in their present un-united state, with 20 or so fractious nation-states, they have no chance of dealing as equals with the US or Europe. Even united, they still would have an economic size, and military strength, far less than the two Western entities. But a united Arab world would have a better chance of keeping foreign armies from overrunning them, and foreign peoples from colonizing their lands. The essential difference between Pan-Arabism, and Zionism, is that the Pan-Arabists seek to unite land they already live on, while Zionism's project is to conquer and colonize land where non-Jews are the majority population. So, Zionism is an essentially imperialist, aggressive ideology, while Pan-Arabism is essentially a defensive ideology. Pan-Arabism could be called imperialist, if they sought to re-conquer Spain and Portugal (which was ruled by Muslims for 700 years), or to reconquer Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria, and other places the Muslim Ottomans owned for centuries. To be as imperialist as Zionism, the Pan-Arabists would have to be trying, not just for military conquest of those now-Christian/secular areas, but a demographic transformation there, that could only happen through a process to immense violence (the modern term being "ethnic cleansing"). You can call the Pan-Arabists imperialists, when they herd all the Christians in Bulgaria onto 10% of Bulgaria's land, wall them into squalid ghettoes, and import millions of Egyptians onto the other 90% of the land. And then offer the Christians a demilitarized "Bulgarian State" on their 10%, if they accept the Muslim ownership of the rest. That is, you can call them imperialists, if they do what Israel is doing.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (110763)	8/10/2003 3:09:22 PM
From: Eashoa' M'sheekha	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawkmoon >>And the next time you ponder the concept of Zionism (Jewish nationalism) as a threat, spend a bit of time contemplating exactly how such a belief is a larger threat than Pan-Arabism (of which the Baathist party subscribed)..<< I’ve never consider Zionism a threat , unless their goal was to expand beyond the lands they were on after the Balfour declaration : mideastweb.org Unless they seized control of water assets and distributed them with a ratio of five to one in favour of their people. Unless they armed themselves with massive nuclear capability and made well known their intention to use them in the event of a conflict. Unless they found themselves in influential governmental and/or military and/or other positions in the West that enabled them to carry out these objectives to the detriment of World Peace. But Nadine has explained quite clearly,not all Zionists carry the same position on Israel.We have : Zionist who would follow the Balfour declaration – I’ll call these “ Traditional Zionists “. T Zionists. Zionists who wish for a negotiated settlement on land claims - “ Moderate Zionists “. M Zionists Zionists who believe in a Greater Israel at all costs – “ Greater Israel Zionists “. G.I. Zionists So I believe it is the G.I. Zionists that are creating much of the problems for you and I and the others. I will reference to these G.I. Zionists in the future for clarity. Thank You Nadine, and for the rest of your post that I will study in the Future. >>The Jews merely wanted to carve out a small homeland so they had a place to go when persecuted in Europe and elsewhere.. << They had a choice of places to go,( Uganda )but chose Palistine,knowing full well that they would not be welcomed there,but as I have stated , I support their existence as the Definitive Jewish State, within the 1967 boarders,with a separate state for the Palestinians to also live their lives without persecution, which by the way,makes me a Zionist by historical definition. >>Whereas, the Pan-Arabists wish to unite every Arab nation in the region, voluntarily, or through coercion, if necessary.. But it's ok to be an Arabist.. << There seems to a lot of that united stuff going around these years.The Asians coming together after the currency crises.The European Union coming together for common currency and free trade zones,and now murmurs of military cooperation of some sort. Seems only America, under Bush,wants to go it alone these days.The Arabists have their religion, although fractured, in a sense,that attaches those common bonds and helps them to fend off what THEY perceive as a threat.That would be America’s ,under Bush,postion to wield unchallenged power in the region,even if the stated goal is Democracy . Nothing new here Hawk.The enemy of my enemy is my friend,and all that. Bush is a uniting force , for his enemies.<GG> >>>But to be a Zionist, in the minds of most liberals, is comparable to calling oneself an imperialist.<< That’s a stretch and a half.The Liberals have been supportive of Jewish Nationalism, but not to the extent that the current administration finds itself,and now finds itself crawdadding ,to give the appearance of some modicum of neutrality in the hopes of being perceived as an “ Honest Broker “. I don’t think the Arabists will forget quickly what has transpired in the past couple of years,but there is hope they will understand the need to move forward,regardless of the mistakes of the past. >>Nasser was a Pan-Arabist.. Hussein considered himself a Pan-Arabist, with delusions of being the next Saladin.. The Saudis, or at least their Wahhabist elements, are Arabists.. seeking to unite all muslims under their religious creed..<< See above…nothing new under the sun here.,but the question might be asked,of what threat this unity would become a problem for you or I,if we had no imperial interest in the area? >>But none of these concepts received nearly a fraction of the attention of the Zionist movement..<< I’m not sure what movement you are talking about ,but if it was the original one , then it would be quite ordinary for the West to have more dealings with this than what was evolving in the ME with the Arabs, thus all the attention,Russia notwithstanding.Much of the other attention comes form the fact that Judaism is closely linked to Christianity,thus the interest is much greater in Christian denominated countries. >>Hawk@thingsthatmakeyougohmmmm... << Hope that helps cure you from your Hmmmm..ing..<GGG>