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To: GraceZ who wrote (42929)12/10/2003 8:19:43 PM
From: Raymond Duray  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 74559
 
Huh? You pretzel logic is leaving me to scratch my head in wonder.

First of all, I never said a thing about class envy. That is entirely your fabricated and illusory concoction based, I dread, upon entirely too much brainwashing for poor lil' ol Grace at the logic laundry of the Faux News Network and hate radio.

The issue isn't one of envy. The issue is the practical one that there never has been a productive middle class country run on the basis of aristocracies passing on enormous inherited wealth. The eventual result of this in every instance has been the permanent imposition of despotism on the populace by a tiny elite who just happened to be part of the lucky sperm club.

The elimination of the estate tax skews the economic playing field to such an extent that the meritocracy of the U.S. with all of its real benefits of creating opportunity for a huge number of people will be lost.

Don't take my word for it. And I doubt you would. Read Kevin Phillips' "Wealth and Democracy"

amazon.com
sfgate.com

to discover the results in our nation's past when wealth has been allowed to accumulate in too few hands. The result is national economic stagnation, and declining living standards for the bulk of Americans.

****
Re: The real question is, does the government provide the same level of return on those assets that the private sector gets?

You are blind to the truth. You are regurgitating the dominant lies of today. Too much brainwashing, Grace. Look, can you tell me of an instance where private initiative and private business has created an interstate highway system enjoyed by all? Or can you imagine the potholed airstrips that the U.S. air transport industry would be using were it not for public development of airports? Or what about the tremendous hydroelectric developments of the West, or the TVA system? Could any private group have accumulated enough capital to buid them? Of course not.

Private industry is only one component of the mixed economy that has made America great. The current fad to diss government is a pathetic and pathological deviation from reality that I hope we are all soon able to put behind us as a mere ideological nightmare confection created by Ron Reagan and a bunch of other actors and posers.

********
Re: why is it that you envy their money?

You grossly misunderstand what I believe in. I want all workers to get a fair return for their efforts in life. I want all families to enjoy a basic dignity. I want a safety net under those who, through no fault of their own, may fall on hard times. I want the rich to pay their fair share for the services that are rendered them. Today, we have a grossly unfair system in the U.S. that has skewed the government toward giving outrageous welfare to corporations, who return the favor by moving their operations and accumulated capital outside the U.S. America should be for Americans. Today, it is certainly appearing ever more that corporations have stolen the Federal Government and are using it to destroy the middle class in our nation.

What I do not have is envy. What I have is anger that our way of life is being stolen from us in a most underhanded and egregiously unfair manner.



To: GraceZ who wrote (42929)12/11/2003 11:11:43 AM
From: AC Flyer  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
Grace:

Thanks for an outstanding post. I shook my head at Raymond's virulent class envy and then moved on, knowing he is irredeemable.

Your point about leaving money in private hands to earn a greater return, adding more to the nation's capital stock than it would in government hands, was excellent. I would also add that the estate tax is fundamentally unfair as it is a blatant case of double taxation - i.e. estates acquired with after tax income are then punitively taxed again.

I have a deeper concern about the kind of attitudes Raymond so ably represents. Democratic economies are composed of citizens who are either net taxpayers or net tax consumers. It is possible for an economy to reach a sort of critical mass whereby tax consumers outnumber taxpayers. At that point the game is over, as the tax consumers vote themselves an ever-bigger slice of the taxpayers' wealth. The end point of this process is a sclerotic, senile economy that looks a lot like Sweden, for example, where 20% of the workforce are on government-paid disability, primarily because they feel they "deserve" an open-ended government-paid vacation.

Welfare system makes Swedish citizenry sick

REUTERS
Thursday, Dec 04, 2003
"[High taxes are] a strong disincentive to get an education and work extra and Swedes respond by working less and less."......Krister Andersson, tax policy director for the Confederation of Swedish Enterprise

Clean air, safe streets, good transport, caring employers and subsidized childcare: Sweden should be a stress-free zone for workers.

Instead, an epidemic of sick leave and "burn-out" is draining its workforce and finances and causing anxiety to a country more used to being a role model than a problem case.

By October more than 800,000 people, or a fifth of the workforce, were on sick leave or had been pensioned off early, according to the National Insurance Board. The cost from January to October was 86.5 billion crowns (US$11.45 billion) or 15 percent of spending.

Those rates are the worst in the EU and have doubled in two years, despite the healthy lifestyle of a people who smoke and drink less than other Europeans, do more sport and have the world's third highest standard of living in UN rankings.

The debate dominates the media: Are Swedes driven too hard, are the world's highest taxes driving them to their sick bed or is sick leave just a new way of saying unemployment?

"It's a terrible waste of energy, paying people for not doing anything," said Aleksander Perski, who runs a pioneering stress clinic at Stockholm's renowned Karolinska hospital.

He does not believe the 200 to 300 burnt-out cases he sees each year are faking it, saying Sweden's Lutheran roots survive in a strong work ethic "so the lack of work is a tragedy."

Those on sick leave write to the press complaining of "spying" by inspectors who, given the task of halving sick-leave rates by 2008, have increased house calls to catch out abusers.

"Stop setting traps for those of us on sick leave, we have already paid the price with our ill health. Help us instead to return to the workplace," said a letter to one newspaper.

It is a long way from the halcyon days of the 1970s, when the "Swedish model" of cradle-to-grave welfare for all was held up to the world as an example of modernity and progress.

A decade after a severe economic crisis forced a re-think of that model, Sweden is still no sweatshop. Unemployment is way below the EU average and firms bend over backwards for staff. At framing chain Gallerix, employees can drop their kids at school or collect them on company time.

"We get less people sick and changing jobs. If you have an hour more to spend on the family you will be a better person and a better help at work," said owner Thomas Sonesson.

He believes high taxes make Swedes quicker than others to say "the system must take care of me when I don't feel good."

High-earners pay 60 percent income tax compared with a 40 percent top rate in much of Europe, plus taxes on wealth and housing that make it hard to put something by for a rainy day.

"This is a strong disincentive to get an education and work extra and Swedes respond by working less and less," said Krister Andersson, tax policy director for the Confederation of Swedish Enterprise, the main business lobby.

He estimates that for three quarters of workers, the gap between net wages and welfare is only 100 crowns (US$13.24) a day, so some choose to stay at home in what he calls a "tax revolt."

High wage costs mean even well-paid professionals cannot afford a cleaner or painter, or to get groceries delivered -- which self-consciously classless Swedes would frown on anyway.

"I spent the whole summer painting houses," said Andersson. "First my mother's house, then my own house. If I hired a painter it would cost me my entire salary."

The lingering utopia of the Social Democrats, in power for six of the last seven decades, is that the state as "folkhem" (home of the people) should supervise citizens, whether at the day-care centre or via a paternalistic liquor monopoly.

But since the 1992 currency crisis, public services have declined and Swedes increasingly have to pay for them in cash or in kind, such as parents helping to clean their kids' schools.

"Isn't this a municipal park? So why are we cleaning it up?" grumbled one father as he shovelled sodden leaves into a plastic bag in a kindergarten playground one chilly Saturday morning.

Perski says Swedes find it hard to adapt because the "folkhem" has eroded informal social networks like the family, meaning that "in Sweden people are lonely without the state."

If the economy is competitive -- the World Economic Forum ranks it third in growth prospects and efficiency -- Andersson says decades of depreciation have helped by making the workforce cheaper, with a subsequent drop in relative per capita income.

The state, overwhelmed by the cost of sick leave, wants employers to shoulder more of the financial burden.

Perski says it would be better to invest in rehabilitation. Six months' treatment at his state-funded clinic costs 45,000 crowns (US$5,958) -- "the cost of one-and-a-half months on sick leave."



To: GraceZ who wrote (42929)12/11/2003 10:20:17 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum  Respond to of 74559
 
Gee Grace you are on a roll with me (FWIW :o). Agree again. My family worked very hard. Built a good business. Most of my generation including myself interestingly made our own lives. It is not in the ethic of our family to 'spoon feed'. Subsequently they sold out just under two years ago to one of Canada's largest firms. They were well known in community for charitable works (not that they have no warts mind you) and in the process gave work to many many thousands of people over that time. Best of all they were respected and loved by their employees for their personal touch. For the government to take the fruits of their labour after they have already contributed so much would be a travesty.
Money is like guns.... the problem lies in the application..

As far as public sector spending one need only look at the health care sector in Canada from the inside as I have to be ashamed of the waste. I still prefer it though to private as the lesser of two evils. I guess it's my Canadian Liberal 'public good' viewpoint..

regards
Kastel



To: GraceZ who wrote (42929)1/17/2004 5:30:21 PM
From: Thomas M.  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 74559
 
Now ask yourself this, if you know that inherited money helps to make these people live miserable non-productive lives, why is it that you envy their money?

There is one obvious way to resolve this contradiction: you are wrong in your assertion that Raymond is envious. What you did was simply the civilized intellectual equivalent of calling him a child molester.

Tom