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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Solon who wrote (18845)12/5/2004 1:22:59 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
To say the universe had no beginning is to say that time had no beginning. But time is a vector, which implies it has both a beginning and an end. Time is also according to Einstein relative which means it is tied to what it measures physically. Before existence of matter, or change in the universe, there was no time. At the end of entropy's inexorable decline in thermal emission, there will be no time. Time began when the universe began to explode, and will end when entropy is at its
lowest ebb.

Since entropy is provable (the laws of thermodyanmics) and no mechanism of rebirth of finite energy has been found, then time must end. If that is so, then it must have had a beginning.

In order for things to have begun, the must have either accidentally happened, or they were caused. There is no room for a steady state of primordial matter to have changed state, for if it were to do, so it would not be primordial, but it would have change and progress within it-- and time. You cannot have a beginning before a beginning.

If they were caused then they could not have been caused by something that is of the same stuff of the universe, but something outside it. That thing must have had volition to cause something, as will would be a necessary part of non accidental causation. It does not have to have the same characteristics and stuff of the universe or remotely the same character. It does not have to be matter, for matter needs a cause. It's primary character is that it requires no cause, coming as it does before all causation thereafter. To assume it needs cause is to deny its necessary character. In order to have a prime mover, you assume it has an infinite character like the number of points in a line. If it had a cause, in fact, it would not be primal, defeating its ability to be a prime mover.

The universe came into being if we accept the change in time. (Time is slowing down as the universe ages).

Most religions have the concept of nothingness, before all time etc.. and the universe coming into being with the push of a creator. If time were infinite its tick would be constant, and the universe would have no heat decay. But it doesn't. Time is slowing down, and the entropy is real.

To ask what the cause is, or what is "gawdo", is the same mistake as to ask what is matter. No one knows either answer. "What" is an impossible question. It assumes the metaphoric description sheds light. If one could say what a thing really were, you could create a thing by saying what it is. "What it is" - is really how it can be measured, detected and experienced. How it interacts with other "whats". In fact, why cannot be answered, and how barely. Perhaps no basic question can be answered. What, how, who, where, why, or when. How is what science chases. It finds out how -- comparatively to simpler models than what we see mosaically. It can never find out how intrinsically.

To assume no permanent end of the universe, is to assume a mechanism of rebirth and flux of creating and destruction of the physical system. It is not in evidence of a mechanism of this flux. It is enticing but not yet found. It would also imply a period and cycle of this change. Knowing this we would know the size of the universe and all matter would have a different cycle according to its size. It would have to be finite in size, and also strangely eventually it would run out cyclical energy unless energy and matter has a very different character than we imagine. Perhaps our understanding of gravity is where this all breaks down. We really don't have handle on that yet, despite Einstein. Space and its character escapes us.

EC<;-}



To: Solon who wrote (18845)12/5/2004 1:41:17 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
You should understand something about Whitehead-Russel's logical propositions to understand this properly.

The proof is discussed here. It involves an acceptance of certain axioms.

stats.uwaterloo.ca

Godel's and Anselms proofs are ontological and are called proofs of necessity. They demonstrate the surprising consequences of our beliefs about the nature of a god. The proof below does not rule out more than one god!

Proof

Axiom 1. (Dichotomy) A property is positive if and only if it's negation is negative.

Axiom 2. (Closure) A property is positive if it necessarily contains a positive property.

Theorem 1 A positive property is logically consistent (i.e., possibly it has some instance).

Definition. Something is God-like if and only if it possesses all positive properties.

Axiom 3. Being God-like is a positive property.

Axiom 4. Being a positive property is (logical, hence) necessary.

Definition. A property P is the essence of x if and only if x has P and P is necessarily minimal.

Theorem 2. If x is God-like, then being God-like is the essence of x.

Definition. NE(x): x necessarily exists if it has an essential property.

Axiom 5. Being NE is God-like.

Theorem 3. Necessarily there is some x such that x is God-like.



To: Solon who wrote (18845)12/5/2004 2:25:22 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
It is not necessary for us to know what caused god, as in some necessities, god could know that if we didn't.

EC<:-}



To: Solon who wrote (18845)12/5/2004 3:33:45 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
Infinite regression inconsistencies explained etc..

"Aristotle purported to have proven the existence of God, but he did so based on a kind of logic that deals with properties of objects, an approach, he argued, that's less than satisfying considering that God's attributes cannot be perceived. Aristotle insisted that there must be a first cause, namely God, in order to avoid the logical inconsistencies of an infinite regress of causes for the universe.

Avicenna, an ancient Muslim philosopher, employed a different form of logic in his proof. He examined the relations between objects rather than their attributes, and in doing so accomplished what Hatcher called "really amazing stuff." He claimed to have proved the existence of God without recourse to Aristotle's infinite regression principle.

Hatcher said that though many subsequent philosophers like Thomas Aquinas and Moses Maimonedes built on Avicenna's proof, they continued to fall back on the infinite regression principle. Hatcher argued that this principle is not sufficient to prove the necessity of God's existence. Modern mathematics demonstrates the logical possibility of infinite regression; negative integers, for instance, do not have a minimal element or something that can be labeled a "first cause."

Thus, Hatcher has attempted to wed modern mathematics and ancient philosophy in a proof of God's existence, drawing on Avicenna's concept of relational logic. "In relational logic, we want to know how the object relates to other objects. It turns out that the relational approach often yields more useful information [than Aristotlean attributional logic]."

The proof itself rests on four principles, the first of which is the assertion that something exists. Even if the world is an illusion, he pointed out, an illusory self, contemplating an illusory universe, is still something that exists.

Further, he said, everything that exists does so because of some cause, and the "principle of sufficient reason" states that every phenomenon is either caused by something external or caused by itself, but never both. "Everything that exists has to have a reason for existing," he said.

Working from these principles, Hatcher first defined what he called "the minimum criteria for Godhood," and then set about trying to prove the existence of a phenomenon to fit those criteria. God, he said, must exist and be unique, and must be self-caused as well as being the cause of everything else. "Every existing phenomenon is the end effect of a causal chain of possibly infinite length, starting with God," he said.

He then delved into Avicenna's discussion of the part-whole relationship. "All known physical phenomena are composites, except possibly the elementary particles of quantum mechanics," he stated. Thus, if A is a component of B, then B is composite, and furthermore a composite cannot be a cause of one of its components, because it could not exist without all its components in place.

From these definitions, he said, one can infer that the universe is a composite of all phenomena. He inferred that the universe itself, then, cannot bring any of its own components into being, as it could not have existed before the existence of the components.

Then, the universe could similarly not be self-caused, since it is caused by the aggregation of its components, and so there must be some object, G, that causes the universe but is not the universe itself. G must then be universal because it is a cause, directly or indirectly, of every component in the universe.

He concluded that G is the unique uncaused phenomenon, because, as the cause of everything, it can't be caused by something else.

Hatcher said that the strength of the proof is that each assumption it rests on is empirically grounded and is "far more reasonable than its negation."

David Kline, CC '07, said he was impressed, even though he felt that the logical proof of God, far from justifying faith, only requires a different kind of faith. But, with that faith in reason so characteristic of Columbia students, he said he appreciated that the talk was "a purely logical representation of the existence of God and not the meaning of God."



To: Solon who wrote (18845)12/5/2004 3:53:21 PM
From: E. Charters  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
What it comes down to is that if one makes of "gawdo" that he is all wise, all knowing, the greatest thing that can exist, then when examining the logical contingencies of this 'nature of' (gawdo) concept -- he must exist. That is the crux. (no symbol intended)

The real question is what characteristics must a god have, a. in order to exist at all, or b. in order to be god. If one endows him with enough super-natural characteristics, then he can spring into logical life like so many little green men with ray guns - all of a sudden - and right in the middle of a serious Western.

We simply have to be very careful to examine what a gawdo must be in order to question whether or not he can be presupposed to exist. Unfortunately the horse escapes the barn door all to easily. Infinite, all powerful, creative of all, above all things, infinite minded etc.. What else could it be? And that is where you get stuck. To imagine a lesser god, is to deny it right away, so the greater god steps into that intellectual vaccuum with aplomb. Very soon he demands an empty seat at the dinner table, all sorts of human sacrifice, and has one completely incapacitated in a sticky web of ethical (un)certainties that are impossible to verify or adhere to except by a more and more tortured conscience.

The problem in attempting to avoid or aver the necessity of gawdo, is that you then begin wondering where the tracks of the deity may be your jello sandwich.

God requires almost god like powers to detect, as the mind closes to the awfulness of the ultimate realization with infinite swiftness. To know god exists for absolute surety would be tantamount to insanity. How would you relate the obvious proof of it everywhere to the busy herd? Imagine talking to the deity. Then tell all your friends. He manifests as a lame sewer rat, speaking Albanian, his presence decodeable by the constellations positions. The universe would hinge on that. Faith would be an absolute necessity for those without TV.

This is all wonderfully related in the book "Avoiding God, Tricks for Would be Athiests" by Luther Martino. Pergammon Press.

A good point is that gawdo can only exist if he is known to exist, as to not be realized by sentient life.. what is the point?

EC<:-}