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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (90338)	12/12/2004 5:48:31 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 793721

We have a conflict between two groups who each see themselves as the outsiders, the victims. Makes for a strange fight. Yeah, that makes sense. I have a very hard time wrapping my mind around the concept that Christians are persecuted in America, but I certainly perceive that some believe themselves to be persecuted. In my mind, it's like white males feeling persecuted by minority setasides and other preferences. Feeling resentment, that I can understand, but feeling actual persecution, that I don't understand. It's way over the top, bordering on paranoia. On the other hand -- another factoid I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is that something like 65% of Americans believe that the earth and everything on it was created exactly as we see it today something like 6000 years ago (or is it 4000 years ago), and that evolution is a hoax. Now that IS a viewpoint which is marginalized. Those people ARE mocked, laughed at, and marginalized by the mainstream media, academics and other professional intellectuals. Maybe they are displacing their resentment for being laughed at and marginalized for believing in fundamentalist creationism into feeling like they are being laughed at and marginalized for being Christians.

To: Lane3 who wrote (90338)	12/13/2004 10:03:29 AM
From: Mary Cluney	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793721

But I think it's true that seculars like me and the Christian-centric are two very different cultures that don't know each other at all. I don't see this divide. I mainly see a scale on which people like you are on one side, the Christian-centric on the other side, and most people (including me) fall somewhere in between. I'm not sure I know what they are thinking at the median or mode. My guess is they do not believe in the literal meaning of heaven and hell. My guess is that they are trending in your direction. But it doesn't matter where they ultimately end up clustering. Jesus Christ (whether he existed or not) has had a tremendous impact on civilization. Why not at least acknowledge that? What harm could that do?

To: Lane3 who wrote (90338)	12/13/2004 11:27:38 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793721

So last night I took the kids to see the White House Christmas tree. Haven't been there in several years, so have no idea whether the following is new or something they changed recently -- in addition to the Christmas tree (which is a huge natural tree planted several decades ago) there was - a Menora of about the same height, with electric lights powered by a very noisy generator; - a manger scene/creche, with almost life-sized statues of Mary, Joseph, Baby Jesus, at least one angel, and some animals, under a shed; - a huge fire pit full of burning logs, with a sign explaining that it's Yule logs, and the historical significance thereof; - and the usual 50 plus smaller decorated trees, one for each state, territory and possession (Guam, yes, Mariannas, I think not). Oh, and toy trains. The only sign was for the Yule logs. Which, by the way, was my favorite thing. I love fireplaces, and miss the bonfires we used to have in the old days.

To: Lane3 who wrote (90338)	12/13/2004 12:29:04 PM
From: Valley Girl	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793721

I think it's simpler. Christians, especially fundamentalists, feel like a minority under attack in their own country because popular culture (TV shows, movies) give them that impression. In my view it goes back to the sexual revolution of the 70s, which brought with it an epidemic of social ills including STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and failed marriages. There has also been a coarsening of language and personal behaviour since the 60s. How often do you see characters in movies or on television having sex with many different people they barely know, or talking about having done so? Speaking or behaving in a vulgar manner? Now how about going to church, or temple, or a religious celebration of any faith? If the ratio is as low as 10:1 I'd be surprised. This is the core of the culture wars. Fundamentalist Christians see pop culture as seduction aimed squarely at the hearts and minds of their children, and they're concerned about it. Perhaps they should be - I cringe when I hear young children swearing like stevedores.