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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 10:17:57 AM
From: bentway  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 89467
 
The Bush admin. pimped the war hard from the start. In case you've forgetten, it never would have come up but for them. I certainly didn't come out of 9/11 saying, "let's invade Iraq!". That came from the Bush admin. and only the Bush admin. According to you, we should forget all that. Mistake, lies, it's wrong either way, and the Bush admin. is responsible. It's not going to happen, not here, not in Europe.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 10:29:43 AM
From: Bill  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 89467
 
Did you see Frontline last night?

They embedded a reporter and producer for a month with a unit. Showed all the good ours guys are doing there, along with how emotionally committed each soldier is.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 11:21:49 AM
From: Orcastraiter  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
How wrong we were and Bush was going to error on the side of proactive protection to safeguard our country and its people. That's what we expect and as it turns out he's being vilified for doing so. But can you imagine if he had not been proactive and something happened here - AGAIN? I know which way I'd rather be view as "the goat."


An intelligent president does not error on the side of proactive protection by causing the death of 100's of thousands and the destruction of entire cities. The top guy at the CIA says we're not safer from terrorism. He says we are more at risk now then before the war.

We can all agree on this too. The Bush administration was pro attacking Iraq...before 9-11. 9-11 was used as an excuse to attack. Now the Bush administration had it's reasons for attacking Iraq before 9-11, but they supplanted those reasons with fears of terrorism. What were those reasons?

Obviously to get rid of Saddam was one. Then there is the oil. Then there is the wider objective of "spreading democracy" around the world. The invasion of Iraq was a rather blunt instrument for accomplishing these goals. It's cost us plenty in the eyes of the world...and now Bush is in Europe trying to patch things up. I do not buy the terror connection...the reaction to 9-11 as a reason to start a war in Iraq. It certainly made sense to go after bin Laden and the Taliban who really were supporting terrorists. The price we have paid in blood, treasure and goodwill has far superceded any benefit we'll see from the war in Iraq.

Yes...we are goats.

Orca



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 11:47:43 AM
From: sandintoes  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
A most excellent post, Gloop..have you ever thought of running for office???



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 12:04:44 PM
From: AuBug  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 89467
 
"...Bush was going to error (sic) on the side of proactive protection to safeguard our country and its people." You're so full of it!!! Bush and his staff are incompetent idiots that ignored a wealth of intelligence, real bona fide stuff, that said terrorists were training to use airplanes as weapons. They did NOTHING!!! Bush is not proactive nor protective, he's reactive and vengeful and has done more damage than you're capable of imagining. Bush violated the US Constitution by waging a war of aggression on foreign soil that has nothing to do with protecting the US. He did not obtain a declaration of war from Congress. He violated international law by invading a sovereign nation without provocation. Bush is an evil megalomaniac!!!



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 12:41:19 PM
From: Lazarus_Long  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 89467
 
That same intelligence was generally accepted around the world, even by countries who did not support our actions.
Message 20984206
Message 21063939
Message 21017615
Message 20998562

These clowns sure love to cherry pick their history.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 1:22:54 PM
From: KLP  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
Another good post, AG. Many people don't want to think that Clinton and most of his Administration talked about WMD as well...as did the UN leadership. Conveniently, those tiny details are swept under the run, in the name of 'bash Bush at all costs'.

In addition, there is another detail....that of Salman Pak...and other similar terrorist training camps in Iraq before the US came in March 2003. Perhaps the highly verbal left and those on the far right (same thing in my mind) think these camps were just used to distribute the Oil-for-Food dollars to the people...and the camps had gone awry.... Here's a couple of examples:

Marines Discover Terror Training Camp Near Baghdad

Wednesday, April 16, 2003

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html

8888888888888888888

From the INTELbriefing article linked to below:
AFI Daily OSINT

Salman Pak - Iraq‘s own terrorist training camp

Two Iraqi Military defectors, an unnamed former Lt. General and a Captain Sabah Khodada recently gave details of an Iraqi school at Salman Pak which includes training for the hijacking of passenger airliners and other modes of transportation. The former Iraqi General said that there was a old Boeing 707 resting next to rail tracks on edge of Salman Pak being used in terrorist training, the existence of this aircraft has been confirmed by UN. Inspectors.

The General, who had been the Security Officer in charge of the camp also reported that there were mixed nationality units including Saudi‘s, Egyptians and Chechens at Salman Pak. Usually about 40 strong, these terrorist units received upto five months of intensive training. However the terrorist units were actually under the control of Iraq‘s Al- Mukhabarat Intelligence Service and in particular a section called the Division of Special Operations. Much of this was also confirmed by Captain Khodada.

The foreign fighters were segregated from Iraqi military personnel and Saddam Husseins own Fedayeen, except during certain specific training sessions. The overall training program included assassination, kidnapping, sabotage or hijacking of aircraft, buses, trains, sabotage of public utilities and most importantly of all, in the use of Chemical, Biological and possibly crude nuclear devices.

However, the training also included how to prepare and carry out suicide attacks and involved how to get access to the flight cabin, getting weapons on board, security weakness, terrorizing the passengers and crew. Captain Khodada stated " Those ‘Arabs‘ are real volunteers. They come in small numbers, and they come with the intention to do some real suicidal operations. "

" It has been said openly in the (Iraqi)media and even to us, from the highest command, that the purpose of establishing of establishing Saddam’s Fedayeen Fighters is to attack American targets and American interests. This is known. There is no doubt about it. All this training is directed towards attacking American targets, and American interests."

Khodada added "The training does not only include hijacking of planes and sabotage, some of the people were trained to do parachuting. Some other areas were training on how to penetrate enemy lines and get information from behind enemy lines. But its all for the general concept of hitting and attacking American targets and American interests. "

The worldwide terrorist threat

While no hard evidence was provided of a link between Iraq and Al Qaida or the Palestinians, the overall impression given by these two defectors and information made available from European Intelligence officials is that Iraq‘s training camps, Al Qaida, Iran‘s Hezbollah and other non-Muslim groups are part of a determined and highly dangerous international terrorist network that is not controlled from Afghanistan or by Osama Bin-Ladin.

With CIA Special Operations Group personnel already in Somalia, officers from the Agency‘s Near East Division in discussion with Somali rebels near Berbera and Yemeni Security officials and with the re-deployment of important US military assets there is the imminent prospect of the conflict spreading to new areas. However, as with the war in Afghanistan, this will just be another serious distraction from coming to terms with the real long-term terrorist threat.

Most of the really effective international terrorists are long-term sleepers, planted within Western nations over the years. They may be your dentist, your tax adviser or that nice family who moved in next door five years ago. These are the planners and organizers who prepare the ground for the suicide bomber or aircraft hijacker who arrive a few months ahead of an operation.

B52 bombing strikes and daring Special Forces operations make good copy, but the real work to dismantle the Al Qaida and other terrorist networks will eventually be down to the

internal security forces such as the FBI, MI-5, DST or even to national Police forces. It is indeed going to be a long and difficult war and it is vitally important that the first casualty is not the very democracy, individual freedom and respect for justice we seek to defend.

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. forces came upon a recently abandoned terrorist training camp on the outskirts of Baghdad where recruits were apparently taught how to make bombs and what to do if they got captured, the Marines said Wednesday.

The extensive camp consisted of about 20 permanent buildings on 25 acres south of the city and was operated by the Iraqi government and the Palestine Liberation Front, said Marine spokesman Cpl. John Hoellwarth.

Among the documents found were filled-out questionnaires that included such questions as "What type of missions would you like to carry out?" according to Hoellwarth. He said many recruits wanted to carry out suicide missions.

The camp included an obstacle course and what appeared to be a prison, to teach terrorists what to do if captured and interrogated, Hoellwarth said.

Recruits were also apparently taught how to make bombs, he said. The Marines found chemicals, beakers and pipes.

Hoellwarth said uniforms and gas masks were also left behind, along with bread and other food, suggesting the place had been used fairly recently.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 3:42:03 PM
From: Peter Dierks  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
This is a well thought out post

It is indeed very lucid. Most of what you said agrees with my thoughts. Perhaps you will suffer a few additional thoughts.

Your point one: I agree with in its entirety.

Your point two: I agree with in its entirety.

Your point three: Very lucid thought process. The action to rid Iraq of terrorists and spread freedom to the country may improve the recruitment abilities of fanatics in the short run. You are correct when you say the reason they are doing this is because if Democracy takes hold and oil revenues are shared with the people and used to build infrastructure Iraq will be a beacon of hope and prosperity. That would make Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the neighboring countries look bad as well as make them rip for a people driven coup. They don't want that because they currently have a religious and political grip on their countries that keeps people impoverished and keeps DAMN FEW in charge*. It also allows them to continue to use extremist religion as a weapon to teach hate and recruit anti American thugs in the name of Allah.

IMHO, the success of a politically free Iraq would spread (as it always seems to) into economics. This could cause a great economic boom in Iraq. I have gone on record before saying that this could turn Iraq into an economic force, which consumes the available labor of its neighbors*. Countries with net emigration tend to underperform the economies of countries with positive net immigration.

IMO what happened to free Mexico politically happened because of the economic improvement in their economy driven by repatriated dollars and repatriated workers. IMHO, this effect would likely spread to the countries neighboring Iraq.

* In the short run, the lack of economic opportunity in Iraq will likely lead to net worker expatriation. Most of these workers will be planning of their return to Iraq. Political freedom is a powerful lure to enhance the natural desire to return home. Money sent to support families of expatriate workers and the experience of returning expatriates should fuel a boom in the economy several years after the realization of a self-sustaining politically free Iraq.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 9:07:09 PM
From: The Philosopher  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 89467
 
We were operating with intelligence that may have been 100% wrong.

Not true. We had clear proof that Saddam had used WMD against both the Kurds and the Iranians.

So, we knew beyond any doubt that
a) within the past decade he had had WMD, and
b) within the past decade he had unleashed his WMD on civillian populations.

That same intelligence was generally accepted around the world, even by countries who did not support our actions. It was also supported by Hans Blix who stated that he believed Iraq had them as well.

So did former President Clinton, under whose aministration most of the intelligence relied on by Bush was developed. Was it irresponsible for Bush to depend on intelligence developed under the Clinton administration?



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (72661)2/23/2005 9:09:19 PM
From: The Philosopher  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 89467
 
The basic reason we are at war in Iraq is because we believe, with John Donne, that no man is an island; that the suffering of those imprisoned and tortured by Saddam is our suffering and our torture.

Because the victims of bullies can't stop the bullies, so the bullies will bully until somebody stronger and with a higher sense or right comes along and stops them.

It's that way on the playground; it's that way in the world.