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Pastimes : History's effect on Religion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (308)	8/11/2005 3:33:49 PM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 520

I really am not trying to be difficult or just playing games but when broad sweeping statements are used to overturn historically established Christianity then I think the onus is on the one making the claims that attempt to overthrow it. You are clearly that one but your evidence is three hundred years late and strangely vague. For instance Polycarp was a direct disciple of the apostle John and he affirmed physical resurrection not spiritual reincarnation as the Hope of all Christians. You want to come along and place Gnosticism not just on an equal footing but actually above that which has been historically established. That requires a very strong case be made but I haven't seen it yet. "Although the Coptic version is not quite identical to any of the Greek fragments, it is believed that the Coptic version was translated from a prior Greek version." "not quite identical"? I would be interested in what that means exactly. How close, and what prior Greek version? Is there any evidence beyond mere speculation of these "prior texts" Christian (so called) scholars, claim that Q existed but there is not a shred of actual evidence that it did besides their admittedly vivid imaginations. Theories are great but where is the evidence?

To: Sun Tzu who wrote (308)	8/11/2005 3:38:45 PM
From: Alastair McIntosh	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 520

Here is a source that believes the Gospel of Thomas is not a second century forgery but dates from the first century: pbs.org Helmut Koester: John H. Morison Professor of New Testament Studies and Winn Professor of Ecclesiastical History Harvard Divinity School KNOW THYSELF One of these documents [found at Nag Hammadi] begins with the scribal note in the margin, "The Gospel According to Thomas." And the first sentence of that document says, "These are the secret words which the living Jesus taught and which Judas Thomas Didymos wrote down." And then they start a total of over 110 sayings, each introduced by "Jesus said...." Some of those sayings have parallels in the gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Some of these have not. Some of these sayings may go back to a very early period of Christianity, some of them may have been added later. The document itself comes from the fourth century.... As with all gospel text, with this one in particular, we have to remember that these texts were fluid, that scribes could add, that scribes could leave out things, that scribes could add comments, or add an interpretation. So we cannot with certainty reconstruct what did the Gospel of Thomas look like around the year 100 or earlier. But it is very likely that it existed at that time, and that a good deal of the material that's now in that manuscript was already in a Greek manuscript that dates back to the first century. Which of course, is very exciting because here we have a collection of sayings of Jesus, additional sayings of Jesus, that were not known before, and the whole beginning of a new field of studies has opened up.... pbs.org A leading authority on the Gospels in early Christianity, Helmut Koester has served as editor of the Harvard Theological Review since 1975. A former president of the Society of Biblical Literature, Koester is also a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Among his numerous publications are books and articles in both German and English, including Trajectories Through Early Christianity (with James M. Robinson). His two-volume Introduction to the New Testament and Ancient Christian Gospels are seminal works in the field. Koester studied at the University of Marburg where he received his doctorate in 1954; he was ordained to the Lutheran ministry in 1956, and began teaching at Harvard Divinity School two years later.