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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/15/2001 7:58:53 PM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

We can deal with some of the unpopularity later Steve... Turning this into a potentially escalating war with all Islam , is thinking too much . That Islam will continue is assured , but moderates can be wooed just as well , and they comprise the majority of Islam. The alternative now , of leaving Bin Laden out there free , is unacceptable. The alternative of allowing the Taliban to continue their hostilities and support of terrorism as well is unacceptable . Read between the lines of Colin Powell's address , and you will see clearly what they intend to do. Don't fret about Islam ...they'll forget about Bin Laden , and he will not be , as you say : "Just replaced by another "... How many other terrorist do you know that have access to 100's of million's of dollars ? Not many I'll wager... (Besides Russia and china of course and some Gov'ts ...but they are terrorists of another order.) So what are the chances you see of bin Laden existing in a free , live state , say in the next two years ? Nil perhaps ?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/15/2001 8:15:35 PM
From: Poet	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

What do you suggest we do?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/15/2001 8:29:15 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

What amazes me is that so many Americans - and so many posters on SI - seem so eager to give him exactly what he wants. I hope you are distinguishing betweb those who want that and those who wish to acknowledge that it is real--and thus wish to give their givr their imput. I knew there was a war the minute I turned om the tv and saw that first tower crumbling. There is a war that will probably create or influence wars all oveer the world. To denounce retaliation would be for the Americans to forever go to the end of the line of human dignity and value. They won't do it. They are the last people on earth (with the possible exception of the brits) who will do it. I follow what you said, and I appreciate that your perspective is more encompassing than that of those behind their own fence--but I think the SI posters may be more savvy than seems obvios at first sight. I guess i should edit that last line: ssome si posters may be be very foolish and misguided as well. I may be guilty. I was once.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/15/2001 8:54:29 PM
From: Constant Reader	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

I think this is what bin Laden said he wanted in 1998: Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement 23 February 1998 Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter. No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life." On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it [EMPHASIS ADDED], in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God." This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'" We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered." Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things." Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith." Source: fas.org

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/16/2001 12:52:35 AM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

What amazes me is that so many Americans - and so many posters on SI - seem so eager to give him exactly what he wants. But what he gets may not be what he wants at all. It is entirely possible that if we bomb or invade Afghanistan, other Islamic nations may decide they want nothing to do with it. They may decide they will not aid bin Laden and his ilk. The conflagration he seeks may simply fail to materialize. The Pakistanis have the same reasons as other Islamic nations to refuse to aid us. But they did. It was under pressure and threat, but they agreed.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (27462)	9/16/2001 2:04:45 PM
From: shadowman	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 82486

This appeared in the Raleigh Observer today. Who he is, and what he wants By WILLIAM O. BEEMAN, Knight Ridder/Tribune PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- The United States risks a severe miscalculation in dealing with the destruction of the World Trade Center and the attack on the Pentagon. This event is not an isolated instance of violence. This is not an "act of war." It is one symptom of a cancer that threatens to metastasize. The root cause is not terrorist activity, as has been widely stated. It is the relationship between the United States and the Islamic world. Until this central cancerous problem is treated, Americans will never be free from fear. Merely locating and hunting down a single "guilty party" in this case will not stop future violence: Such an action will not destroy the organization of terrorist cells already established throughout the world. Of greater importance, it will do nothing to alleviate the residual enmity against America that will remain at large in the world, continuing to motivate violence. The perpetrators of the first attack on the World Trade Center, in 1993, were caught and convicted. This did not stop the attack on Tuesday. The chief suspect is the Saudi Arabian Osama bin Laden or his surrogates. He has been mischaracterized as an anti-American terrorist. He should rather be thought of as someone who would do anything to protect Islam. Bin Laden began his career fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in 1979, when he was 22 years old. He has not only resisted the Soviets but also the Serbians in Yugoslavia. His anger was directed against the United States primarily because of the U.S. presence in the Gulf region, more particularly in Saudi Arabia -- the site of the most sacred Islamic religious sites. According to bin Laden, during the Persian Gulf war America co-opted the rulers of Saudi Arabia to establish a military presence in order to kill Muslims in Iraq. In a religious decree issued in 1998, he gave religious legitimacy to attacks on Americans in order to stop the United States from "occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places." His decree also extends to Jerusalem, home of the second most sacred Muslim site -- the al-Aqsa Mosque. The depth of his historical vision is clear when, in his decree, he characterizes Americans as "crusaders," harkening back to the Medieval Crusades, in which the Holy Lands, then occupied by Muslims, were captured by European Christians. He will not cease his opposition until the United States leaves the region. Paradoxically, his strategy for persuading the United States to do so seems drawn from the American foreign-policy playbook. When the United States disapproves of the behavior of another nation, it "turns up the heat" on that nation through embargoes, economic sanctions or withdrawal of diplomatic representation. In the case of Iraq following the Gulf war, America employed military action, resulting in the loss of civilian life. The State Department has theorized that if the people of a rogue nation experience enough suffering, they will overthrow their rulers, or compel them to adopt more sensible behavior. The terrorist actions in New York and Washington are a clear and ironic implementation of this strategy against the United States. Bin Laden takes no credit for actions emanating from his training camps in Afghanistan. He has no desire for self-aggrandizement. A true ideologue, he believes that his mission is sacred, and he wants only to see clear results. For this reason, the structure of his organization is essentially tribal-cellular in modern political terms. His followers are as fervent and intense in their belief as he is. They carry out their actions because they believe in the rightness of their cause, not because of bin Laden's orders or approval. Groups are trained in Afghanistan, and then establish their own centers in places as far-flung as Canada, Africa and Europe. Each cell is technologically sophisticated, and may have a different set of motivations for attacking the United States. Palestinians members of his group see Americans as supporters of Israel in the current conflict between the two nations. In the Palestinian view, Ariel Sharon's ascendancy to leadership of Israel has triggered a new era, with U.S. government officials failing to pressure the Israeli government to end violence against Palestinians. Palestinian cell members will not cease their opposition until the United States changes its relationship with the Israeli state. The Mujaheddin fighters in Lebanon also direct their hostility against Israel and the United States. They also operate against the Maronite Christian community in their own country, who were supported by the French from World War I until the end of World War II. They will not cease their operations until the region is firmly in Islamic hands. Above all, Americans need to remember that the rest of the world has an absolute right to self-determination that is as defensible as our own. Despicable acts of mayhem such as those committed in New York and Washington are a measure of the revulsion that others feel at our actions that seemingly limit those rights. If we perpetuate a cycle of hate and revenge, this conflict will escalate into a war that our great-grandchildren will be fighting. William O. Beeman is a professor of anthropology at Brown University. A specialist on Mideast culture, he has written extensively on fundamentalism and terrorism