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To: No Mo Mo who wrote (16106)	3/4/2002 6:37:55 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

<I find it shockingly exclusionary that you see this planet as a support system for humans regardless of the cost to other living species. > Darin, well, you are right there. The cost of other species is shockingly exclusionary. You should see the price of snapper these days, for example. .... just kidding, I see it's a 'to' not an 'of'. But it's a dog eat dog world and one big happy ecological dinner table. Humans look dominant, but only from our point of view. If you turn yourself into an ant for a day or any one of a vast multitude of other DNA spirals, you'll find humans are not an especially big deal. Sure, other mammals and competing primates have had a tough time [being big enough to see and nice enough to eat and vulnerable to high-powered rifles]. But outside that narrow view, even mammals are only a small part of the DNA variety. If we weigh species, I doubt that humans are very high on the list. It's all how you look at it. If Mitsubishi doesn't log the land, the next Tunguska comet, landslide, forest fire, termite infestation or some other event will. High plateaus get eroded, if not by Japanese diesel trucks, then by the Colorado River. You should see the damage to the high plateau where the Colorado has carved a truly Grand Canyon, dumping sediment into the ocean, causing large landslides and erosion on a scale humans can't yet dream of. The sight of a large logger snipping trees at the trunk and stacking them is wonderful. What's left isn't very park-like from the human point of view, but there are swarms of beasties which do better without the nasty pine canopy making life impossible underneath. Of course the pines are soon back taking over, but that's just life in the fast lane which is DNA vs DNA vs Cosmos vs Entropy. Sure, humans aren't the only species on earth, but if they are the only species in my house, that's okay by me [cat, budgie and goldfish excluded - plus a few digestive system bugs to maintain methane production]. Mqurice

To: No Mo Mo who wrote (16106)	3/4/2002 6:48:40 PM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi Darin, I definitely like the cut of your jib. We've had some recent discussions of Lomborg's "The Skeptical Environmentalist" in the Boom Boom Room that you might find of interest. Message 17102350 Message 17102650 Message 17103274 siliconinvestor.com Message 17104583 It gets a bit rancorous, but then, it's only the future of the planet that's at stake. ......................................................... I assume those on the other side of the discussion are not appalled as I am with the rape of Bougainville by Rio Tinto Zinc, (aided by Sandline International, like Executive Outcomes, an army for hire: dfat.gov.au Soldier of Fortune map: domino.un.org or the rape of Irian Jaya at Grasberg by Freeport-McMoran and their private mercenary army supplemented by Indonesian federal army forces: fcx.com (One must ask, if relations with the local people are "very good" then why was the Indonesian military called in?) eurosur.org or the rape of Sarawak by the politically connected cronies of the Suhartos.... You know the drill. Sierra Leone, Angola, Congo..... Privatized Armies on the Bleeding Edge of Globalization. Quite literally. Sandline International: sandline.com Executive Outcomes: members.tripod.com fas.org -Ray

To: No Mo Mo who wrote (16106)	3/4/2002 10:52:48 PM
From: smolejv@gmx.net	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

there's IGNORE buttons ready to push in a number of other situations, not just on SI (sg). re discussion so far: Nice to talk about the sunny colourful future. Difficult to talk about how the rest of the world will get there. dj

To: No Mo Mo who wrote (16106)	3/5/2002 2:29:01 AM
From: pezz	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 74559

excellent post ... Some, of course don't care much for the natural beauty afforded by a well balanced ecosystem when confronted by the splendor of downtown LA Yes when the oceans are for all practical purposes fished out humans will find a substitute, but'cha know what? Even the most ardent pro population growthers will admit that some day we must reach zero growth... My question to them is Will we be happier if we wait a few billion more or if we stop now? In a coupla generations the two child family will be forced upon us wether or not we like it..... Will that generation be glad we waited till we had no choice? Or wish we had more foresight? Will the selfishness of current generations be a fair trade off for what the planet has lost forever? What do ya think they will say?